is it possible to install a desktop-manager without python and perl?

I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
thanks
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On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 8:17 PM, 明覺 wrote:
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
> thanks
Don't know if evilwm is proper, but it's simple/small, cool, and written in C.
http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
>
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明覺 wrote:
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
> thanks
How does having python, perl installed will affect your c/c++ programmes? I
am just curious.
raju
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http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Kamaraju S
Kusumanchi wrote:
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>> thanks
>
> How does having python, perl installed will affect your c/c++ programmes?=
I
> am just curious.
I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
able to modify them someday in the future. thanks
>
> raju
> --
> Kamaraju S Kusumanchi
> http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/
>
>
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* =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
> thanks
>=20
>=20
# apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can=20
decide wether you can live without them.
Sebastian
--=20
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Karl Marx | ( ) against HTML e-mail =20
SEB@STI@N G=C3=9CNTHER | X against M$ attachments
mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de | / \ www.asciiribbon.org =20

* =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]:
> I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
> programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
> programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
> able to modify them someday in the future. thanks
Well that is not very broadminded...
And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the=20
most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming=20
paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages.
BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their=20
main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly=20
they are not programming gurus...
Sebastian
--=20
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Karl Marx | ( ) against HTML e-mail =20
SEB@STI@N G=C3=9CNTHER | X against M$ attachments
mailto:samson@guenther-roetgen.de | / \ www.asciiribbon.org =20

>Sebastian Günther wrote:
> * 明覺 (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>> thanks
>>
>>
>
> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>
> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
> decide wether you can live without them.
>
> Sebastian
>
But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
will have any effect on the libs already installed.
And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
stuff ?
aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
were dragged in as dependencies.
Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only"
system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
Tom
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
thveillon.debian wrote:
>>Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>>> thanks
>>>
>>>
>>
>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>
>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>
>> Sebastian
>>
>
> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
> stuff ?
yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
me.
>
> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
> were dragged in as dependencies.
>
> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only"
> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
be optional, not necessory!
>
> Tom
>
>
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2009/6/22 Sebastian G=C3=BCnther :
> * =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 05:33]:
>> I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
>> programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
>> programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
>> able to modify them someday in the future. thanks
>
> Well that is not very broadminded...
>
> And you should, as a programmer, at least have a little knowledge of the
> most common programming languages. And knowledge of *all* programming
> paradigmas, which would also include declarative languages.
>
> BTW: perl and python are not that hard to learn or read, since their
> main purpose was to help sysadmins to get their jobs done. And mostly
> they are not programming gurus...
yes, they are not hard to learn, but if to learn it, it's a waste of
time for me! they just make wrappers for C libraries, I do not like
that!
>
> Sebastian
>
> --
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I ribbon campaign
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
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=A6=AA=E8=A6=BA=E8=A7=80=E5=AF=82=E6=BB=85=EF=BC=8C=E4=B8=89=E7=A6=AA=E5=96=
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2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>>Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>
>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you ca=
n
>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>
>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>> stuff ?
> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
> me.
>>
>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>
>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only"
>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
> be optional, not necessory!
Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.

Beggers can't be choosers.

Your a (self-proclaimed) junior programmer. Either deal with what's
freely available to you while climb the programmer ladder, or develop
it yourself (on paper, I guess).
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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2009/6/22 Neal Hogan :
> 2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
>> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>>>Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>>>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>>
>>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you c=
an
>>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>>
>>>> Sebastian
>>>>
>>>
>>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
>>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>>> stuff ?
>> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
>> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
>> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
>> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
>> me.
>>>
>>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look prett=
y
>>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually bu=
t
>>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>>
>>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only=
"
>>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
>>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
>> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
>> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
>> be optional, not necessory!
>
> Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
> you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
> certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
> developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
> the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.
>
>
> Beggers can't be choosers.
>
you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to you!
>
> Your a (self-proclaimed) junior programmer. Either deal with what's
> freely available to you while climb the programmer ladder, or develop
> it yourself (on paper, I guess).
>
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debi=
an.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>明覺 wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>> Sebastian Günther wrote:
>>> * 明覺 (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>
>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you can
>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>> stuff ?
> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
> me.
>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pretty
>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually but
>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>
>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only"
>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
> be optional, not necessory!
>> Tom
>>
Well, there's always Mike OS, it's assembly language only, with C
library and api to write C code for it... If that's minimalistic enough
for you, at least you won't be bothered by Perl or Python ! (but the guy
doing Mike OS, Mike Saunders, is also writing Python columns for
LinuxFormat magazine... There's tools for every job).
http://mikeos.berlios.de/
Cheers,
Tom
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2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
> 2009/6/22 Neal Hogan :
>> 2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
>>> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>>>>Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>>>>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a deskto=
p
>>>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager=
?
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>>>
>>>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you =
can
>>>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>>>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
>>>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>>>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>>>> stuff ?
>>> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
>>> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
>>> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
>>> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pret=
ty
>>>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually b=
ut
>>>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>>>
>>>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language onl=
y"
>>>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
>>>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
>>> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
>>> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
>>> be optional, not necessory!
>>
>> Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
>> you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
>> certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
>> developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
>> the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.
>>
>>
>> Beggers can't be choosers.
>>
> you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to you=
!
>>
I suggest you rethink the cliche and I wish you luck with the narrow
career strategy you've laid out for yourself.
>> Your a (self-proclaimed) junior programmer. Either deal with what's
>> freely available to you while climb the programmer ladder, or develop
>> it yourself (on paper, I guess).
>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
>>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.deb=
ian.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashp=
layer|Codeblocks)
>>> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
>>> =B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=
=AC=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=BC=
=C5=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=DE=
=B3=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=B6U=
=A1=A3
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debi=
an.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
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yer|Codeblocks)
> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
> =B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=
=AC=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=BC=
=C5=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=DE=
=B3=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=B6U=
=A1=A3
>
>
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On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
> programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
> programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
> able to modify them someday in the future. thanks
If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You =20
don't have to know the language to run programs written in it, and you =20
don't need to have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.
Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your =20
quest to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those =20
languages (or others beyond C/C++).
--=20
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM,
thveillon.debian wrote:
>>=C3=F7=D3X wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
>> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>>> Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>>>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>>>>> thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>>
>>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you c=
an
>>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>>
>>>> Sebastian
>>>>
>>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing them
>>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>>> stuff ?
>> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
>> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
>> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
>> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
>> me.
>>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look prett=
y
>>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually bu=
t
>>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>>
>>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language only=
"
>>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and other
>>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) )
>> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
>> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
>> be optional, not necessory!
>>> Tom
>>>
>
> Well, there's always Mike OS, it's assembly language only, with C
> library and api to write C code for it... If that's minimalistic enough
> for you, at least you won't be bothered by Perl or Python ! (but the guy
> doing Mike OS, Mike Saunders, is also writing Python columns for
> LinuxFormat magazine... There's tools for every job).
>
> http://mikeos.berlios.de/
thank you very much, I also like assembly programming, that's the
right distribution for me!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tom
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian=
.org
>
>
--=20
Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplaye=
r|Codeblocks)
Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
=B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=
=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=BC=C5=
=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=DE=B3=
=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=B6U=A1=
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2009/6/22 Neal Hogan :
> 2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
>> 2009/6/22 Neal Hogan :
>>> 2009/6/22 =C3=F7=D3X :
>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 4:11 PM,
>>>> thveillon.debian wrote:
>>>>>>Sebastian G=A8=B9nther wrote:
>>>>>> * =C3=F7=D3X (shi.minjue@gmail.com) [22.06.09 03:18]:
>>>>>>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>>>>>>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible t=
o
>>>>>>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system=
,
>>>>>>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a deskt=
op
>>>>>>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manage=
r?
>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> # apt-cache --installed rdepends (perl|python)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> should show you which packages depend on perl resp. python. Then you=
can
>>>>>> decide wether you can live without them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But aren't "perl" or "python" packages just metapackages acting like
>>>>> glue for all the others in the section ? I don't know if removing the=
m
>>>>> will have any effect on the libs already installed.
>>>>> And doesn't the package configuration system needs python and/or perl
>>>>> stuff ?
>>>> yes, i hate it so much! if i remove python, the whole gnome
>>>> environment are removed; if i remove perl, the whole xorg system is
>>>> removed. I don't think it's a good design to make python or perl so
>>>> bottom, especially for people who do not like python and perl, like
>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> aptitude search ~S~i~s'(perl|python)' returns packages that look pre=
tty
>>>>> low-level stuff to me, most of which I have never installed manually =
but
>>>>> were dragged in as dependencies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looks like a strange idea to me to run a "one programming language on=
ly"
>>>>> system, it would hint that there's a "one fits all" language and othe=
r
>>>>> are just for decoration purpose... (Well, some may agree I guess ;-) =
)
>>>> yes, currently, I'm almost a "one programming language only" people, I
>>>> can accept the existence of other languages, but I think they should
>>>> be optional, not necessory!
>>>
>>> Necessary for what?! For you to use a computer? It seems as though
>>> you're being unreasonable (on many fronts), but if you are not fan of
>>> certain software, then don't use it. Don't bitch about how it was
>>> developed. Those folks (eg., gnome, X.org, etc.) produced a product
>>> the way that they did and then offered it to the masses for free.
>>>
>>>
>>> Beggers can't be choosers.
>>>
>> you treat yourself a begger, I'm not, I'm a chooser. Happy begging to yo=
u!
>>>
>
> I suggest you rethink the cliche and I wish you luck with the narrow
> career strategy you've laid out for yourself.
you are right, I cannot find a job....
>
>
>>> Your a (self-proclaimed) junior programmer. Either deal with what's
>>> freely available to you while climb the programmer ladder, or develop
>>> it yourself (on paper, I guess).
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
>>>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.de=
bian.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flash=
player|Codeblocks)
>>>> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
>>>> =B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=
=A3=AC=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=
=BC=C5=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=
=DE=B3=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=
=B6U=A1=A3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
>>>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.deb=
ian.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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ayer|Codeblocks)
>> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
>> =B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=
=AC=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=BC=
=C5=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=DE=
=B3=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=B6U=
=A1=A3
>>
>>
>> --
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>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debia=
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>>
>>
>
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r|Codeblocks)
Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
=B3=F5=B6U=D1=D4=D5Z=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=B6=FE=B6U=D3X=D3^=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=
=C8=FD=B6U=CF=B2=D0=C4=BC=C5=9C=E7=A3=AC=CB=C4=B6U=B3=F6=C8=EB=CF=A2=BC=C5=
=9C=E7....=D3=DA=D8=9D=D3=FB=D0=C4=A1=A2=E0=C1=ED=A3=D0=C4=A1=A2=D3=DE=B3=
=D5=D0=C4=B2=BB=98=B7=A1=A2=BD=E2=C3=93=A3=AC=CA=C7=9E=E9=9Fo=C9=CF=B6U=A1=
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Eduardo M
KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>
>> I'm a junior programmer, and I plan to use only c/c++ as my
>> programming languages, and I don't like python or perl, I hope all the
>> programs in my own system are written only in c/c++ so that I will be
>> able to modify them someday in the future. thanks
>
> If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You don't h=
ave
> to know the language to run programs written in it, and you don't need to
> have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.
>
> Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your ques=
t
> to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those languages (o=
r
> others beyond C/C++).
yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those
other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be
hard to maintain for me. thanks
>
>
> --
> Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.orgwith a subje=
ct
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>
>
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=AA=EC=C1I=A8=A5=BBy=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A4G=C1I=C4=B1=C6[=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A4T=C1I=
=B3=DF=A4=DF=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A5|=C1I=A5X=A4J=AE=A7=B1I=B7=C0....=A4_=B3g=B1=
=FD=A4=DF=A1B=DC=D2=D1}=A4=DF=A1B=B7M=B7=F6=A4=DF=A4=A3=BC=D6=A1B=B8=D1=B2=
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On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Eduardo M
> KALINOWSKI wrote:
>> If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You don't h=
ave
>> to know the language to run programs written in it, and you don't need to
>> have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.
>>
>> Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your ques=
t
>> to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those languages (o=
r
>> others beyond C/C++).
> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
> full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those
> other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be
> hard to maintain for me. thanks
If you want to follow this approach, then I think you facing it from =20
the wrong perpective: if you want to be able to understand the source =20
of all programs in a typical Linux system and be able to modify them, =20
limiting yourself to C/C++ is not going to get you much further.
If you want that, you should at least become somewhat familiar with =20
other languages -- at least the ones that are widely used such as =20
Perl, Python, shell scripting... (you may actually skip Lisp, Lua, =20
Ruby, Brainfuck and others for now).
And it's not that hard. Perl and Python, for example, follow =20
essentially the same procedural model as C. The syntax has some =20
differences, the built-in or library functions available are different =20
(but again, share some similarities, especially Perl and C), but the =20
paradigm is the same. If you can speak C/C++ well, it should not be =20
difficult to pick up other procedural languages. And it will do you no =20
bad, on the opposite, can help you a lot.
Learning, say, Lisp (or one of its derivatives) or Haskell (or another =20
functional programming language) can take more time (but is good =20
anyway). But these aren't so widely used.
--=20
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
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明覺 writes:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
>>
>>> So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl?
>>
>> Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser
>> extent.
> gnome depends on python, if other desktop manager doesn't depend on
> it, I will switch to that one.
>>
>>> could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or
>>> python? thanks
>>
>> What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question.
>> Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you
>> provide some more details about your application?
> no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I
> will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning
> any other programming languages.
> thanks
I like the mindset of wanting to be able to modify the programs on your
computer. Truly, this is the heart of running a Free Software operating
system. It is excellent to see a user elevating that desire so high.
Unfortunately for your other constraints, you will be unable to achieve
the goal of a Perl-free system with most distributions. Many software
developers work in Perl or Python so that they can produce good software
much more quickly than writing everything by hand in C; I choose OCaml
myself for this very reason. Perl is used for some of the base glue
that holds Debian together. Even Gentoo, one of the most customizable
distributions around short of LFS, used Python for its package manager
last I knew. And even in LFS land, you will definitely have shell
scripts, and if you go far enough with it will need Perl and perhaps M4
programs to get things working (IIRC some of the Autotools suite
requires Perl).
So while the goal of being able to modify anything is good, I do not
think it is achievable with the constraint of only C or C++ with
presently-available Linux distributions.
You might try FreeBSD. Perl and Python are not installed in the base
system; everything in its base system is C, C++, shell/sed/awk, or Make.
Perl and Python will only be installed when you start installing
additional software from its Ports collection that require them.
- Michael
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Eduardo M
KALINOWSKI wrote:
> On Seg, 22 Jun 2009, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Eduardo M
>> KALINOWSKI wrote:
>>>
>>> If you don't want to learn Perl or Python, then simply don't. You don't
>>> have
>>> to know the language to run programs written in it, and you don't need =
to
>>> have plans to modify the programs in order to use them.
>>>
>>> Having them installed and running them will not distract you in your
>>> quest
>>> to learn C. And quite a lot of programs are written in those languages
>>> (or
>>> others beyond C/C++).
>>
>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
>> full control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those
>> other language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be
>> hard to maintain for me. thanks
>
> If you want to follow this approach, then I think you facing it from the
> wrong perpective: if you want to be able to understand the source of all
> programs in a typical Linux system and be able to modify them, limiting
> yourself to C/C++ is not going to get you much further.
>
> If you want that, you should at least become somewhat familiar with other
> languages -- at least the ones that are widely used such as Perl, Python,
> shell scripting... (you may actually skip Lisp, Lua, Ruby, Brainfuck and
> others for now).
>
> And it's not that hard. Perl and Python, for example, follow essentially =
the
> same procedural model as C. The syntax has some differences, the built-in=
or
> library functions available are different (but again, share some
> similarities, especially Perl and C), but the paradigm is the same. If yo=
u
> can speak C/C++ well, it should not be difficult to pick up other procedu=
ral
> languages. And it will do you no bad, on the opposite, can help you a lot=
.
>
> Learning, say, Lisp (or one of its derivatives) or Haskell (or another
> functional programming language) can take more time (but is good anyway).
> But these aren't so widely used.
I know your opinion is the behalf of many programmers, maybe also
advanced programmers, but my opinion is not the same. Though I'm a
junior programmer in C/C++, I also haved learned "many" programming
languages --- C#, sql, javascript, xslt, python(yes, I learned it).
When I was using sql, I complained that why sql not use the same
string processing functions as C#; when I was learning javascript, I
made the same complaint; when I was learning xslt, I complained once
more; and when I was lastly learning python, I became so angry, why
all these languages do the same thing but with a different funtion
name? I hate it!
So I decide I won't learn any other language, I will only use
C/C++(and assembly if necessory) in the future, I cannot bare the
waste of time those scripts languages bring to us programmers any
more.
thanks
>
>
> --
> Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
>
>
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Michael Ekstrand wrot=
e:
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wr=
ote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 05:40:20PM +0800, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>>
>>>> So does it mean debian determines the use of python and perl?
>>>
>>> Python? Python is not a dependency. perl-base is. perl is, to a lesser
>>> extent.
>> gnome depends on python, if other desktop manager doesn't depend on
>> it, I will switch to that one.
>>>
>>>> could you help recommend some distributions that do not need perl or
>>>> python? thanks
>>>
>>> What's your problem with using perl? This is not a rethorical question.
>>> Do you have an issue of performance? Disk space? Memory usage? Can you
>>> provide some more details about your application?
>> no problem with perl, I just want to keep my system simple so that I
>> will be able to modify them someday in the future, without learning
>> any other programming languages.
>> thanks
>
> I like the mindset of wanting to be able to modify the programs on your
> computer. Truly, this is the heart of running a Free Software operating
> system. It is excellent to see a user elevating that desire so high.
>
> Unfortunately for your other constraints, you will be unable to achieve
> the goal of a Perl-free system with most distributions. Many software
> developers work in Perl or Python so that they can produce good software
> much more quickly than writing everything by hand in C; I choose OCaml
> myself for this very reason. Perl is used for some of the base glue
> that holds Debian together. Even Gentoo, one of the most customizable
> distributions around short of LFS, used Python for its package manager
> last I knew. And even in LFS land, you will definitely have shell
> scripts, and if you go far enough with it will need Perl and perhaps M4
> programs to get things working (IIRC some of the Autotools suite
> requires Perl).
thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
C/C++.
thanks
>
> So while the goal of being able to modify anything is good, I do not
> think it is achievable with the constraint of only C or C++ with
> presently-available Linux distributions.
>
> You might try FreeBSD. Perl and Python are not installed in the base
> system; everything in its base system is C, C++, shell/sed/awk, or Make.
> Perl and Python will only be installed when you start installing
> additional software from its Ports collection that require them.
>
> - Michael
>
> --
> mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type.
>
>
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=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA writes:
> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's just
> some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to C/C++.
C/C++ is really just improved FORTRAN. Learn Lisp and Haskell and Forth.
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=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA writes:
> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
> maintain for me.
If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
language.
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Hi,
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 09:17:18AM +0800, $BL@k4(B wrote:
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it?
Not yet until you help us writing system commands in C/C++.
> I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
> thanks
Desktop uses many of these. But even update-alternatives command for
bare bone install requires perl. (Debian is relatively free from python
script for its system programs.)
update-alternatives is written in perl. It is part of dpkg. This is as
fundamental as it can get to.
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On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
>> maintain for me.
>
> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
> language.
Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
> --
> John Hasler
>
>
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On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler =20
> wrote:
>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to =20
>>> take full
>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those =20
>>> other
>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be =20
>>> hard to
>>> maintain for me.
>>
>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard =20
>> for you
>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>> language.
> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
Boy, I didn't realize that by "junior programmer" you meant you were =20
that inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that =20
you've just basically said you are either unwilling or unable to =20
understand the different reasons for different languages.
EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a =20
DIFFERENT purpose.
It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. =20=
There are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more =20=
appropriate and better for a job than another is.
But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it =20
quite clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more =20
experienced has to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.
Hal=
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明覺 wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>> 明覺 writes:
>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take full
>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard to
>>> maintain for me.
>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for you
>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>> language.
> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON!
No one language is "best" for everything. For instance - I can code
web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl
or Java. The same is true with anything else.
I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
languages were chosen for their particular projects.
You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
different languages!
To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.
So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
like the rest of us do.
Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In
this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over
this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just
be the first of many frustrations for you.
And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
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2009/6/23 Napoleon :
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take fu=
ll
>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard =
to
>>>> maintain for me.
>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for y=
ou
>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>>> language.
>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>
> What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON!
> No one language is "best" for everything. For instance - I can code
> web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl
> or Java. The same is true with anything else.
>
> I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
> forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
> even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
> disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
> languages were chosen for their particular projects.
>
> You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
> what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
> different languages!
>
> To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
> languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
> to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.
>
> So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
> learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
> like the rest of us do.
>
> Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In
> this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over
> this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just
> be the first of many frustrations for you.
>
> And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
> if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
> for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
debian user.
>
>
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2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan :
>
> On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>>>
>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>>
>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take fu=
ll
>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard =
to
>>>> maintain for me.
>>>
>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for y=
ou
>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>>> language.
>>
>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>
> Boy, I didn't realize that by "junior programmer" you meant you were that
> inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've just
> basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
> different reasons for different languages.
>
> EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFEREN=
T
> purpose.
I will give an example to deny your opinion - "a DIFFERENT tool with a
DIFFERENT purpose"
Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
be C#, I guess. Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
it's C/C++.
>
> It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. Th=
ere
> are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropria=
te
> and better for a job than another is.
>
> But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite
> clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced ha=
s
> to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.
>
>
>
> Hal
>
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明覺 wrote:
> > 2009/6/23 Napoleon :
>> >>
>> >> And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
>> >> if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to
you -
>> >> for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
> > I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
> > programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
> > debian user.
>> >>
Sorry, this should have gone to the list.
Let's see. You ask a question, self-admittedly as a junior programmer.
You get pretty much the same response from multiple experienced
programmers - with which you continue to argue.
It doesn't matter whether you're asking as a programmer or a user.
We're all volunteers here. Please tell me why we should subject
ourselves to such absurdities. Personally, I don't post here much. But
I've learned who NOT to respond to. And high on the list is people who
argue like you do.
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On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:35 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> 2009/6/23 Napoleon :
>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler =20=
>>> wrote:
>>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to =20
>>>>> take full
>>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those =20=
>>>>> other
>>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be =20=
>>>>> hard to
>>>>> maintain for me.
>>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard =20=
>>>> for you
>>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about =20
>>>> knowing a
>>>> language.
>>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same =20
>>> functions.
>>
>> What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A =20
>> REASON!
>> No one language is "best" for everything. For instance - I can code
>> web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, =20=
>> Perl
>> or Java. The same is true with anything else.
>>
>> I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
>> forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
>> even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
>> disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
>> languages were chosen for their particular projects.
>>
>> You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, =20
>> guess
>> what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
>> different languages!
>>
>> To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
>> languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're =20
>> going
>> to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.
>>
>> So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
>> learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, =20
>> just
>> like the rest of us do.
>>
>> Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself =20
>> miserable. In
>> this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get =20=
>> over
>> this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will =20=
>> just
>> be the first of many frustrations for you.
>>
>> And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, =20=
>> but
>> if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to =20
>> you -
>> for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
> debian user.
I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of "The Boy Who =20
Cried Wolf," but you might want to look it up and see what it says. =20
The main point is that if people get used to seeing your emails =20
following a pattern, after a while, they're not going to bother to =20
read the same comments and lines of reasoning over and over if they =20
have never found them interesting in the past.
Hal=
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=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA:
>
> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
> just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
> C/C++.
This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher
order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare
to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint
is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures)
is not even turing complete!
If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add
anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them.
J.
--=20
Nothing is as I planned it.
[Agree] [Disagree]

On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my =C2=A0questions abo=
ut
> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
> debian user.
a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel lik=
e=20
it?
b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian =
is=20
written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest. =20
I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are=
=20
grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very,=20
very grateful to the developers.
Lisi
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Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 明覺 wrote:
>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
>> debian user.
>
> a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel like
> it?
+1
>
> b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debian is
> written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest.
+1
>
> I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who are
> grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very,
> very grateful to the developers.
>
+2
/tony
--
http://www.baldwinsoftware.com
free/open source software
tcl yer os with a feather...
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In , Jochen Schulz wrote:
>=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA:
>> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
>> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
>> just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
>> C/C++.
>
>This is plain wrong.=20
>How do you do closures in C/C++?
=46unction-objects. (Examples in STL.)
>What about higher
>order functions,
=46unction-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I=
=20
think; In Boost anyway.)
>pattern matching,
That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ using=
=20
templates) or slowly and painfully.
>dynamic typing?
Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to b=
e=20
static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only willing=
=20
to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]
Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite=20
unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fairly=
=20
impossible to "do" weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.
I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and=20
Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually a=
=20
lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs at=
=20
those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into=20
C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.
I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and=20
Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based=20
languages. ;)
=2D-=20
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,=3D ,-_-. =3D.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
> debian user.
Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will
not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
Don't waste people's time. Ever.
You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do
the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to
say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you
might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language
versus the other. "=C4=C6=C4=C6=A6=F3=A9=D2=A6=FC=A1A =A4=D1=A6a=A4@=A8F=
=C5=C3" -- in English, is it 'just the same
thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of
things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!"
I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and
Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized
that different languages do different things much more easily than
others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It
took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to SAVE
time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
in C.
You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
problem you can think of solving with computers?
You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is
unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas
are at least worth considering.
Good luck.
~Jeff Soules
2009/6/22 =A9=FA=C4=B1 :
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take ful=
l
>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard t=
o
>>> maintain for me.
>>
>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for yo=
u
>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>> language.
> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>> --
>> John Hasler
>>
>>
>> --
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>> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debia=
n.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashpla=
yer|Codeblocks)
> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
> =AA=EC=C1I=A8=A5=BBy=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A4G=C1I=C4=B1=C6[=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A4T=C1=
I=B3=DF=A4=DF=B1I=B7=C0=A1A=A5|=C1I=A5X=A4J=AE=A7=B1I=B7=C0....=A4_=B3g=B1=
=FD=A4=DF=A1B=DC=D2=D1}=A4=DF=A1B=B7M=B7=F6=A4=DF=A4=A3=BC=D6=A1B=B8=D1=B2=
=E6=A1A=ACO=AC=B0=B5L=A4W=C1I=A1C
>
>
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>
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2009/6/21 =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA :
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
(This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
this initial email.)
FYI:
perl: C program
python: C program
(ba)sh: C program
ruby: C program
sed: C program
awk: C program
the list continues...
And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
their own "language" that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
How are you going to build your code?
What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
more internet? :-)
On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
before you "know" your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
quote some more from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:
"A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
known as "Potato"); this version of Linux was originally released in
August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
develop."
Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.
Cheers,
Hilco
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700
Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
> 2009/6/21 =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA :
> > I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> > python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> > reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> > and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> > manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
By the way, there are a few window managers that don't depends on perl/pyth=
on,
I double that there are any desktop managers. None of them will run without
Xorg. It's core is mostly c/c++ by the way, the others are probably mostly =
for
handling setup files and such.
>=20
> (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
> this initial email.)
>=20
> FYI:
> perl: C program
> python: C program
> (ba)sh: C program
> ruby: C program
> sed: C program
> awk: C program
> the list continues...
>=20
> And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
> their own "language" that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
> something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
> compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
> How are you going to build your code?
>=20
> What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
> more internet? :-)
That would really free up my day, I think I'll take your offer
>=20
> On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
> before you "know" your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
> is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
> quote some more from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:
>=20
> "A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
> known as "Potato"); this version of Linux was originally released in
> August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
> million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
> have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
> develop."
>=20
Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing
with people why you languages other than c/c++ ...
> Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
> to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the
second I'll take care of in a few thousand years
>=20
> Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Hilco
>=20
>=20
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan :
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrot=
e:
> >>>
> >>> =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA writes:
> >>>>
> >>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take =
full
> >>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those oth=
er
> >>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be har=
d to
> >>>> maintain for me.
> >>>
> >>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for=
you
> >>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
> >>> language.
> >>
> >> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
> >> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
> >
> > Boy, I didn't realize that by "junior programmer" you meant you were th=
at
> > inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've ju=
st
> > basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
> > different reasons for different languages.
> >
> > EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFER=
ENT
> > purpose.
> I will give an example to deny your opinion - "a DIFFERENT tool with a
> DIFFERENT purpose"
> Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
> to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
> the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
> be C#, I guess.=20
The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sorry
wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you sta=
rt
digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts and
batch scripts of one sort or another.
> Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
> it's C/C++.
I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name sugest=
s,
scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh wh=
ich
is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (vari=
ant
of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.
You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts.
OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of apple
script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc.
> >
> > It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. =
There
I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usually =
it's
the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your initi=
al
language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of
people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock i=
nto
one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the
managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the language.
> > are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more appropr=
iate
> > and better for a job than another is.
> >
> > But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it quite
> > clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced =
has
> > to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hal
> >
> > --
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.orgwith a sub=
ject
> > of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
> > =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA writes:
> >> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take fu=
ll
> >> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
> >> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard =
to
> >> maintain for me.
> >
> > If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for y=
ou
> > you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
> > language.
> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.
First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you'd
know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful but =
it
is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line that =
you
would need 100s of lines of code with c.
Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who:
"c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of asse=
mbly ..."
> > --
> > John Hasler
> >
> >
> > --
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debi=
an.org
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
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2009/6/23 Micha Feigin :
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:41:44 -0700
> Hilco Wijbenga wrote:
>> "A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
>> known as "Potato"); this version of Linux was originally released in
>> August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
>> million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
>> have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
>> develop."
>
> Just wondering where that last 5 came from? ;-) possibly that's for arguing
> with people why you languages other than c/c++ ...
That's gotta be about Vim vs. Emacs. ;-) Or maybe about where to put
the braces after having decided that Vim rules! :-P
>> Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
>> to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
>
> I would like to say to both but I would settle for the first for now, the
> second I'll take care of in a few thousand years
You're still alive so you have not been proven mortal yet. ;-)
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Micha Feigin:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
> =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
>=20
>> Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
>> it's C/C++.
>=20
> I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name suge=
sts,
> scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh =
which
> is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
> compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
> files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (va=
riant
> of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.
Vim is out of the question as well since it includes its own scripting
language. As well as sed, awk, etc. Probably even ed. I am starting to
wonder how many turing complete languages a common Debian system
contains. Probably more than a hundred.
J.
--=20
There is no justice in road accidents.
[Agree] [Disagree]

2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan :
>
> On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:35 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/23 Napoleon :
>>>
>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrot=
e:
>>>>>
>>>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take
>>>>>> full
>>>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those oth=
er
>>>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be har=
d
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> maintain for me.
>>>>>
>>>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for
>>>>> you
>>>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>>>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>>>
>>> What you haven't learned is there are different languages FOR A REASON!
>>> No one language is "best" for everything. For instance - I can code
>>> web pages in C/C++ - but it is much faster for me to do it in PHP, Perl
>>> or Java. The same is true with anything else.
>>>
>>> I've got over 40 years of programming experience; in that time I've
>>> forgotten more languages than you have ever learned. Some no longer
>>> even exist. But every one of them had certain advantages and
>>> disadvantages - and those differences were a major reason why the
>>> languages were chosen for their particular projects.
>>>
>>> You don't like the way different languages handle strings - well, guess
>>> what. If they all did everything the same way, they wouldn't be
>>> different languages!
>>>
>>> To be blunt (like others) - so you don't like the fact different
>>> languages are being used on your system. There is no way you're going
>>> to be able to rewrite all that code in C/C++ in your lifetime.
>>>
>>> So you have two choices. You can accept that fact and continue to
>>> learn, using the tools available to you, no matter what language, just
>>> like the rest of us do.
>>>
>>> Or, you can continue to bitch about it and make yourself miserable. In
>>> this case, I suggest you try another profession - if you can't get over
>>> this little bit, you are not suited to be a programmer. This will just
>>> be the first of many frustrations for you.
>>>
>>> And one more thing - you can continue to bitch in this email list, but
>>> if you do, it won't be long before people will stop responding to you -
>>> for ANY post, even when you're asking for help.
>>
>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
>> debian user.
>
> I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of "The Boy Who Cried
> Wolf," but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The main
> point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a patter=
n,
> after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same comments and
> lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them interestin=
g
> in the past.
I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope
there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those
who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree
with me.
>
>
>
> Hal
>
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400
Jeff Soules wrote:
...
> Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
> converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
> parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
> doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It
> took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
> maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
> I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
> back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
> ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
> What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
> tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
> great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
> those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to SAVE
> time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
> sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
> in C.
Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough
coder to go on the record with an opinion):
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html
Celejar
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Jochen Schulz wrote:
> =A9=FA=C4=B1:
>>
>> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
>> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
>> just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
>> C/C++.
>
> This is plain wrong. How do you do closures in C/C++? What about higher
> order functions, pattern matching, dynamic typing? How do you even dare
dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a
dynamic type is just a memory type.
I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
avoid all the overlappings among different languages.
> to complain about SQL (in another post of yours), if your only complaint
> is that it is unlike C in some respects? SQL (without stored procedures)
> is not even turing complete!
I surely dare to complain sql, it's a programming languge with all the
general functions such as string processing, can't you hear the
complaint from most programmers? microsoft has even replaced sql
programming by .net framework. If you think I complain sql and other
languages just because they are unlike C, you are too hard to
communicate with.
>
> If you already know the terms I mentioned and still think they don't add
> anything to what's already in C/C++ then you didn't understand them.
>
> J.
> --
> Nothing is as I planned it.
> [Agree] [Disagree]
>
>
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 23 June 2009 03:35:08 =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
>> debian user.
>
> a) Why *shouldn't* we ignore your Debian questions if we happen to feel l=
ike
> it?
I only suggest you not ignore my quetsion, of cause you can deny my suggest=
ion.
> b) Debian user? But you have already said that you dislike the way Debia=
n is
> written and are switching over to MikeOS. Be our guest.
Well, I dislike microsoft, but I'm using Vista; I dislike perl and
python in debian, but I'm using debian; I dislike the web browser in
gNewSense, but I'm using gNewSense.
>
> I imagine that many, if not most, of us are very happy Debian users who a=
re
> grateful for advice from those more experienced than ourselves, and very,
> very grateful to the developers.
Being grateful doesn't mean I agree with them totally, it's a so simple log=
ic.
>
> Lisi
>
>
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith
Jr. wrote:
> In , Jochen Schulz wrote:
>>=A9=FA=C4=B1:
>>> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
>>> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
>>> just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
>>> C/C++.
>>
>>This is plain wrong.
>>How do you do closures in C/C++?
>
> Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)
>
>>What about higher
>>order functions,
>
> Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, I
> think; In Boost anyway.)
>
>>pattern matching,
>
> That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ usi=
ng
> templates) or slowly and painfully.
>
>>dynamic typing?
>
> Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types to=
be
> static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only willi=
ng
> to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]
>
> Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite
> unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fairl=
y
> impossible to "do" weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.
>
> I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, and
> Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usually=
a
> lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs a=
t
> those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into
> C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.
>
> I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
> Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
> languages. ;)
Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
> --
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,=3D ,-_-. =3D.
> bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
> ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
> http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
>
>
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 8:32 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
...
>>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions =20
>>> about
>>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions =20=
>>> as a
>>> debian user.
>>
>> I don't know if your culture is aware of the story of "The Boy Who =20=
>> Cried
>> Wolf," but you might want to look it up and see what it says. The =20=
>> main
>> point is that if people get used to seeing your emails following a =20=
>> pattern,
>> after a while, they're not going to bother to read the same =20
>> comments and
>> lines of reasoning over and over if they have never found them =20
>> interesting
>> in the past.
> I think I'm talking about something interesting and serious, I hope
> there will be someone who is also interested in my thoughts, for those
> who ignore my questions, I can understand, not everyone will agree
> with me.
You're talking about something serious, but, as many have pointed out =20=
to you here, and as I've pointed out to you several times in private =20
emails, what you think is interesting is not really of interest to the =20=
rest of the programming world, and especially to those with experience =20=
-- and the more experience one has, from what I can tell, the less =20
they seem to find that issue interesting. Most are not as much =20
interested in your thoughts as they are in helping you see how you've =20=
boxed yourself into an area so small and esoteric that if you continue =20=
on your current path, your work will be of little interest to anyone =20
but yourself.
As to who is interested in your thoughts, it goes both ways. You =20
continually reject any comments that disagree with you as valueless or =20=
as wrong and insist that you are right. If you treat others, =20
especially those with much more experience than you, like that, then =20
why are they going to be interested in your comments?
Hal=
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>> ...
>> I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, =20=
>> and
>> Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
>> languages. ;)
> Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
> languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
> advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
> ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here =20=
have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three =20=
word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?
I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE.
It's just a programming language.
GET A LIFE.
Hal=
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明覺 wrote:
> dynamic typing is so easy, for every object is a piece of memory, so a
> dynamic type is just a memory type.
> I believe every language has its own advantages, my solution is to
> integrate all the advantages of all the languages into one language,
> which can be called any name, not only C/C++, just because gnu/linux
> is mainly written in C and C++ is the widely used OOP language, so I
> choose C/C++ as the basis. In this way, we get all the benifit, and
> avoid all the overlappings among different languages.
Spoken like a true newbie with absolutely no idea what he's talking
about - but is 110% sure he knows more than several million programmers
all over the world with much more programming experience.
You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming
languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
so on to build things.
And I very much doubt your attitude is helping you get a job.
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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:
>
> You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming
> languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
> There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
> requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
> so on to build things.
>
Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying...
One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
(just kidding folks. ;)
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rodmur@gmail.com
/.-)
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2009/6/23 =A9=FA=C4=B1 :
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:28 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith
> Jr. wrote:
>> In , Jochen Schulz wrote=
:
>>>=A9=FA=C4=B1:
>>>> thanks, but before I got the benifit of so many languages, I have been
>>>> tired of learning them, maybe it cannot be called "learning", it's
>>>> just some parallel memory, for none of them bring new concepts to
>>>> C/C++.
>>>
>>>This is plain wrong.
>>>How do you do closures in C/C++?
>>
>> Function-objects. (Examples in STL.)
>>
>>>What about higher
>>>order functions,
>>
>> Function-objects plus tuple types. (Tuple types in latest C++ standard, =
I
>> think; In Boost anyway.)
>>
>>>pattern matching,
>>
>> That same way it's done it other languages, either statically (in C++ us=
ing
>> templates) or slowly and painfully.
>>
>>>dynamic typing?
>>
>> Bah. As long as the language is strongly typed, I prefer all my types t=
o be
>> static. Type errors should be detected before run time. [I'm only will=
ing
>> to let value errors slip until run time so I can accept user input. ;)]
>>
>> Still. C++ is neither strongly nor dynamically typed, which is quite
>> unfortunate, but are language choices. In comparision, it would be fair=
ly
>> impossible to "do" weak, static typing in Ruby or Python, too.
>>
>> I don't agree with the OP, though. Languages like Perl, Python, PHP, an=
d
>> Ruby allow you to trade off (very little) run time or memory for (usuall=
y a
>> lot) of man-hours. CPU cycles and RAM is much cheaper than Labor costs =
at
>> those ratios, and *all* of those languages have some way of calling into
>> C/C++ for things that just have to be written in those languages.
>>
>> I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
>> Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
>> languages. ;)
> Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
> languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
> advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
> ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
You (uncompromisingly) prefer something you don't even know? And are
(insistently) rejecting things you don't? Is that what you said?
>> --
>> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,=3D ,-_-. =3D.
>> bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
>> ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
>> http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
>>
>>
>
>
>
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In , Hal Vaughan wrote:
>On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
>>> I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog,
>>> and
>>> Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
>>> languages. ;)
>>
>> [...] modify the g++ compilers as I like.
If you want to modify gcc, you'll probably want to learn LISP since it uses=
=20
a LISP-liek language internally for certain things.
>[D]oes anyone here
>have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three
>word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?
It was posted on /. today.
In any case, for a certain type of programmer, learning a new programming=20
language is like discovering a new author, composer, or artist. The better=
=20
languages have a "fingerprint of beauty" that is visible in each of the=20
better programs written in the language.
Of course, some languages (INTERCAL comes to mind) just make the brain hurt=
=2E =20
Even those can sometimes teach you something, but are best avoided for real=
=20
work.
=2D-=20
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,=3D ,-_-. =3D.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

2009/6/23 Jeff Soules :
>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
>> debian user.
>
> Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
> but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will
> not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
> speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
> Don't waste people's time. Ever.
yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.
>
> You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do
> the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
> English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
> Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to
> say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you
> might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language
> versus the other. "=C4=C6=C4=C6=A6=F3=A9=D2=A6=FC=A1A =A4=D1=A6a=A4@=A8F=
=C5=C3" -- in English, is it 'just the same
> thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of
> things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
> same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
> think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
> C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
> lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
> in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!"
A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need
English to be the world official language", I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.
I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one. The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
in one language to another.
The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
and use it from the start to end.
>
> I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and
> Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
> and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
> different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized
> that different languages do different things much more easily than
> others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!
>
> Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
> converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
> parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
> doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It
> took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
> maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
> I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
> back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
> ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
> What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
> tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
> great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
> those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to SAVE
> time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
> sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
> in C.
I want to integrate perl into C/C++.
>
> You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
> able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
> An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
> going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
> functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
> the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
> memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
> problem you can think of solving with computers?
Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
software world.
>
> You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
> accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
> over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is
> unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas
> are at least worth considering.
no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a
situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do
things.
thank you for the advice!
>
> Good luck.
>
> ~Jeff Soules
>
> 2009/6/22 =A9=FA=C4=B1 :
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take fu=
ll
>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those other
>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard =
to
>>>> maintain for me.
>>>
>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for y=
ou
>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>>> language.
>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>>> --
>>> John Hasler
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Hal Vaughan wrote:
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:13 PM, 明覺 wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I think the OP need to spend some time with Haskel, Erlang, Prolog, and
>>> Lisp. Only *then* can you truly learn to *hate* non C-based
>>> languages. ;)
>> Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
>> languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
>> advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
>> ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
>
> The more I read in this thread, the more I wonder -- does anyone here
> have a link to a video of William Shatner delivering that famous three
> word line in a Saturday Night Live sketch from the '70s or '80s?
>
> I mean, seriously, GET A LIFE.
>
> It's just a programming language.
>
> GET A LIFE.
>
>
> Hal
>
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii137/Alembic-/Videos/?action=view¤t=SNL-WilliamShatner-GetALife.flv
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 9:51 PM, Dale Harris wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:
>>
>> You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming
>> languages because there are NEEDS for different programming
>> languages.
>> There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
>> requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches
>> and
>> so on to build things.
>>
>
> Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient
> saying...
>
> One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
> One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
> In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
>
>
> (just kidding folks. ;)
No he's not.
Hal
(Who had the same thought in his mind on reading the idea of one
language for all purposes.)
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On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:53:14 -0500
Neal Hogan wrote:
[lots of stuff snipped]
Reminder to everyone: please trim quotes.
Celejar
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Dale Harris wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 09:28:10PM -0400, Napoleon wrote:
>> You just don't get it, do you? There are different programming
>> languages because there are NEEDS for different programming languages.
>> There will NEVER be one programming language which meets all
>> requirements. Just like there are hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches and
>> so on to build things.
>>
>
> Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient saying...
>
> One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
> One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
> In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
>
>
> (just kidding folks. ;)
>
>
ROFLMAO!
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On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules :
>>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions =20
>>> about
>>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions =20=
>>> as a
>>> debian user.
>>
>> Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
>> but does not listen to the response. People value their time and =20
>> will
>> not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
>> speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
>> Don't waste people's time. Ever.
> yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
> advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
> advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
> trying to figure out the best way.
No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you =20
that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, =20
"But you're wrong and I'm right."
>>
>> You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do
>> the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
>> English. =46rom your sig and your name you're obviously a native
>> Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to
>> say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you
>> might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one =20
>> language
>> versus the other. "=C4=C6=C4=C6=A6=F3=A9=D2=A6=FC=A1A =A4=D1=A6a=A4@=A8=
F=C5=C3" -- in English, is it =20
>> 'just the same
>> thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of
>> things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
>> same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
>> think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
>> C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
>> lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
>> in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!"
> A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
> Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
> official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
> an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need
> English to be the world official language", I believe no one will
> agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
> languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English,
> Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
> guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
> have to learn English.
Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every =20
level. In this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it =20
beyond any boundary of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into =20
it more, but why? You'll just say, "But I'm right and you're not."
> I value every good concept in every language,
No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've =20
been told dozens of times.
> but please add that good
> concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;
Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do =20
nothing -- except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how =20
taxes work in your country). You make it sound like a chore to learn =20=
a new language. For a true programmer it isn't. Learning a new =20
language, for a real and true programmer, is and adventure. It's a =20
chance to approach all problems from yet another perspective. I =20
learned most languages in a few hours or days. When I first started =20
looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, working with =20
other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're being =20
forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.
But after reading that line, I wonder....
Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks =20
like you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't =20
have to learn languages you don't want to learn.
I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.
> or,
> I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
> but please do not force me to use a new one.
Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, =20=
don't learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, =20
don't be surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! =20
Honestly, that you can even talk about being forced to learn a =20
language, that you even have that as a concept in your brain, says =20
even more about you. It tells us you don't want to learn something =20
new. It tells us you don't want to explore. It tells us you see =20
programming more as a chore than an art or challenge. It also says =20
that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a programmer.
> The way computers working
> is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
> in one language to another.
Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how =20
much it shows everyone that you know almost nothing about =20
programming? Seriously, and not as a slam against you, you keep =20
making statements like that and each one just tells us even more about =20=
how little you know and how little you're willing to learn. You're =20
not just ignorant, you simply refuse to learn.
> The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
> cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
> and use it from the start to end.
That is one of the stupidest comments I've heard anyone say or write =20
in at least a year -- and I know stupid. I lived through the 2009 =20
U.S. Presidential elections (which are included in that one year). =20
Seriously, it's just plain ignorant and stupid.
I've written bash scripts to work with programs in other languages. =20
Look at how Perl uses C and C++ libraries and they work together. =20
I've written programs in Perl that communicate with programs in Java =20
with no trouble.
You make it sound like it's such a barrier to have different =20
languages, but it's not.
This statement is as stupid as saying, "We should all learn to play =20
the same musical instrument so we can all read notes on the same staff =20=
and in the same notation and play in the same range." Honestly, I =20
don't know whether you're now spinning your wheels and making up =20
things to try to justify your position or not, but you've crossed a =20
line somewhere today and gone from making statements that let you =20
sound somewhat intelligent but inexperienced to making statements that =20=
make you sound like you have just enough intelligence to learn simple =20=
programming tasks, but not enough to see how much you don't know.
>> I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and
>> Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
>> and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
>> different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've =20
>> realized
>> that different languages do different things much more easily than
>> others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
> but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
> different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
> C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
> It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!
Odd. It's painful for you, other programmers don't have an issue with =20=
it. Is it possible programming is not a wise career path for you? =20
Maybe you should try something different.
>> Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
>> converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
>> parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
>> doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) =20=
>> It
>> took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
>> maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
>> I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
>> back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
>> ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
>> What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
>> tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
>> great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
>> those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to =20
>> SAVE
>> time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
>> sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
>> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
>> in C.
> I want to integrate perl into C/C++.
Remember what I said above? This gets even more outlandish than your =20=
other statements -- and see what I said about how they make you look =20
as you make each new one.
>> You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
>> able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
>> An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
>> going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
>> functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
>> the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
>> memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
>> problem you can think of solving with computers?
> Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
> people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
> programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
> software world.
Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent =20
and experience.
>>
>> You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
>> accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
>> over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it =20=
>> is
>> unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their =20
>> ideas
>> are at least worth considering.
> no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a
> situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do
> things.
And it's not, but your ego is so strong and your need to appear and =20
feel right is so strong that you are incapable of backing down and =20
realizing when you've goofed or when you don't understand something.
> thank you for the advice!
Why? You don't want it, you won't listen. You just tell all of us =20
we're wrong and you're right, yet you're the one without a job, you're =20=
the one willing to piss off your bosses in programming jobs.
Hal=
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Am Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:13:29 +0800
schrieb =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA :
> Thank you, my plan is to first learn C/C++, then learn other
> languages, I learn other languages in order to extract out their
> advantages into C/C++, not for using them, of cause, before I have the
> ability to modify the g++ compilers as I like.
Sorry for the question, but how old are you? I think I also had similar
ambitions when I was 13...
Andreas

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:51:34 -0400
Dale Harris wrote:
> Ah, but one is fabeled. Obviously you've never heard this ancient
> saying...
>
> One Language to rule them all, One Language to find them,
> One Language to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
> In the Land of Redmond where the Shadows lie.
>
>
> (just kidding folks. ;)
Sure you are. One suggestion, though; it should read, "...where /even/
the shadows lie." It's so much more true-to-life.
Cybe R. Wizard
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This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
here as "can you run Debian without perl or python", the answer is
pretty much no.
He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
this list for a while.
As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
his opinions.
Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
share.
I don't agree with him that a "one programming language system"
would be "the right way to do things" or that it would lead to a
bright future of our free software world". but I'm not going to insult
him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
this endeavor.
=93Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
depends on unreasonable people.=94 GB Shaw.
The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line
stay about the same.
The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers
of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with
level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
major advantage.
On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
languages can communicate in "meta-programming" terms, a hash-table is
a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits
of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
system.
H.
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On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:41 AM, Hilco
Wijbenga wrote:
> 2009/6/21 =A9=FA=C4=B1 :
>> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
>> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
>> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
>> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
>> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
>
> (This is in response to various comments/answers you gave, not just
> this initial email.)
>
> FYI:
> perl: C program
> python: C program
> (ba)sh: C program
> ruby: C program
> sed: C program
> awk: C program
> the list continues...
>
> And have you thought about make, m4, gcc, autotools? They all have/are
> their own "language" that you need to learn. gcc uses Lisp (or
> something like it) internally, are you now no longer going to use a
> compiler? No more make because it requires you to learn its language?
> How are you going to build your code?
I don't know gcc uses Lisp, I thought gcc is prgrammed in C, maybe I
can use only the C programmed part of Gcc, or I can develop my own
compiler by asm if I do not like gcc.
>
> What about XML, YAML, HTML, javascript, and such? No more browser? No
> more internet? :-)
Of course I will use all of them, I even use windows vista everyday
for playing games, that's my user role; for my programmer role, I will
use Xml and html, for they are data files, not programming languages,
I will try to write my own brower in C++, and use a subset of C++ to
be the dhtml programming language instead of javascript.
>
> On a different note, have you realised just how much you need to know
> before you "know" your whole system? Just the Linux kernel is (2.6.29)
> is 11 million SLOC. Debian 4.0 was a whopping 283 million SLOC. To
> quote some more from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code:
>
> "A similar study was later made of Debian Linux version 2.2 (also
> known as "Potato"); this version of Linux was originally released in
> August 2000. This study found that Debian Linux 2.2 included over 55
> million SLOC, and if developed in a conventional proprietary way would
> have required 14,005 person-years and cost $1.9 billion USD to
> develop."
>
> Are you going to live that long? Do you have that much money? (If yes
> to the latter, could you please send a few million my way?) ;-)
why don't you ask this question to debian or Bill Gates when they just
started their work? Is microsoft built by the one person Bill Gates?
Is bebian developed by the one person Ian?
>
> Please think this through and listen to reason before you waste your life=
.
>
> Cheers,
> Hilco
>
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On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feigin wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan :
>> >
>> > On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wro=
te:
>> >>>
>> >>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take=
full
>> >>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those ot=
her
>> >>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be ha=
rd to
>> >>>> maintain for me.
>> >>>
>> >>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard fo=
r you
>> >>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>> >>> language.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>> >> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions=
.
>> >
>> > Boy, I didn't realize that by "junior programmer" you meant you were t=
hat
>> > inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've j=
ust
>> > basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
>> > different reasons for different languages.
>> >
>> > EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIFFE=
RENT
>> > purpose.
>> I will give an example to deny your opinion - "a DIFFERENT tool with a
>> DIFFERENT purpose"
>> Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is
>> to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
>> the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
>> be C#, I guess.
>
> The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, sor=
ry
> wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if you s=
tart
> digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts an=
d
> batch scripts of one sort or another.
I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
command line console in vista.
>
>> Then what's the only one language for linux? I think
>> it's C/C++.
>
> I'm afraid you are out of luck. All the init scripts are as the name suge=
sts,
> scripts (you may get away without bash but you won't get away without sh =
which
> is basically simple bash). You probably should compile the kernel as
> compilation includes scripts (assuming you don't have problems with make
> files), emacs is out of the question as half of it is writen in elisp (va=
riant
> of list). Vim may be ok, don't know.
>
> You can try dos, but the startup agian depends on batch scripts.
>
> OSx likes objectiveC more than c++, but there is also quite a bit of appl=
e
> script and it's unix behind the scene which means perl, bash, python, etc=
.
>
>> >
>> > It is rarely a whim why a programmer picks one language over another. =
There
>
> I found that it's usually due to a whim and a bunch of buzz words. Usuall=
y it's
> the program you know, but quite often this is due to you picking your ini=
tial
> language to match the programming you like. I also do find that a lot of
> people, esspecially windows people BTW, tend to be narrow minded and lock=
into
> one programming language, usually it's c++ or c#. A lot of times its' the
> managers who don't know anything about programing that choose the languag=
e.
I feel very strange that you have learnt so many languages but you do
not feel bored with them. I have no words to say, maybe we are 2
different people.
>
>> > are often several, if not many reasons why one language is more approp=
riate
>> > and better for a job than another is.
>> >
>> > But there's no point in continuing any discussion. You've made it qui=
te
>> > clear you're too busy being right to care what anyone more experienced=
has
>> > to say -- unless it's what you want to hear.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hal
>> >
>> > --
>> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.orgwith a su=
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>> > of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feigin wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler wrote:
>> > =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>> >> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to take f=
ull
>> >> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those othe=
r
>> >> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be hard=
to
>> >> maintain for me.
>> >
>> > If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard for =
you
>> > you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing a
>> > language.
>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functions.
>
> What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.
>
> First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use them you=
'd
> know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be powerful bu=
t it
> is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line tha=
t you
> would need 100s of lines of code with c.
100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
>
> Don't try to kill a fly with a cannon, or to quote I don't remember who:
> "c is a language that has the power of assembly and the ease of use of as=
sembly ..."
>
>
>> > --
>> > John Hasler
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>> > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.deb=
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>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
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On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Cowley Harris wrote:
> This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
> here as "can you run Debian without perl or python", the answer is
> pretty much no.
> He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
> was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
> this list for a while.
>
> As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
> disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
> his opinions.
>
> Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
> disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
> logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
> troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
> share.
>
> I don't agree with him that a "one programming language system"
> would be "the right way to do things" or that it would lead to a
> bright future of our free software world". but I'm not going to insult
> him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
> this endeavor.
>
> "Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
> depends on unreasonable people." GB Shaw.
>
> The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
> that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
> the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
> the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line
> stay about the same.
> The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers
> of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
> c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with
> level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
> major advantage.
>
> On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
> languages can communicate in "meta-programming" terms, a hash-table is
> a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits
> of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
> system.
thank you! I thought they are kind to give me advice, but I'm wrong,
they just want to laught at me, it doesn't matter, I finally know it,
and maybe next time I will discover it earlier.
I still insist my ideal: one language for computer programming!
>
> H.
>
>
> --
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2009/6/24 Hal Vaughan :
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules :
>>>>
>>>> I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions about
>>>> programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions as a
>>>> debian user.
>>>
>>> Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
>>> but does not listen to the response. People value their time and will
>>> not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
>>> speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
>>> Don't waste people's time. Ever.
>>
>> yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
>> advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
>> advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
>> trying to figure out the best way.
>
> No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you that
> you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying, "But you're
> wrong and I'm right."
I give you much respect, but you give me laughing, I will not respect
you anymore, no thanks, good bye!
>
>>>
>>> You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do
>>> the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
>>> English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
>>> Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to
>>> say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you
>>> might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one language
>>> versus the other. "=C4=C6=C4=C6=A6=F3=A9=D2=A6=FC=A1A =A4=D1=A6a=A4@=
=A8F=C5=C3" -- in English, is it 'just the same
>>> thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of
>>> things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
>>> same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
>>> think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
>>> C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
>>> lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
>>> in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!"
>>
>> A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
>> Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
>> official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
>> an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need
>> English to be the world official language", I believe no one will
>> agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
>> languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English,
>> Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
>> guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
>> have to learn English.
>
> Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every level. =
In
> this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it beyond any bounda=
ry
> of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into it more, but why? You'l=
l
> just say, "But I'm right and you're not."
>
>> I value every good concept in every language,
>
> No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've been
> told dozens of times.
>
>> but please add that good
>> concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;
>
> Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do nothing=
--
> except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how taxes work in you=
r
> country). You make it sound like a chore to learn a new language. For a
> true programmer it isn't. Learning a new language, for a real and true
> programmer, is and adventure. It's a chance to approach all problems fro=
m
> yet another perspective. I learned most languages in a few hours or days=
.
> When I first started looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got =
it,
> working with other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you'=
re
> being forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.
>
> But after reading that line, I wonder....
>
> Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks like
> you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't have to lea=
rn
> languages you don't want to learn.
>
> I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.
>
>> or,
>> I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
>> but please do not force me to use a new one.
>
> Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one, do=
n't
> learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job, don't be
> surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one! Honestly, that you
> can even talk about being forced to learn a language, that you even have
> that as a concept in your brain, says even more about you. It tells us y=
ou
> don't want to learn something new. It tells us you don't want to explore=
.
> It tells us you see programming more as a chore than an art or challenge=
.
> It also says that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a
> programmer.
>
>> The way computers working
>> is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
>> in one language to another.
>
> Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how much =
it
> shows everyone that you know almost nothing about programming? Seriously=
,
> and not as a slam against you, you keep making statements like that and e=
ach
> one just tells us even more about how little you know and how little you'=
re
> willing to learn. You're not just ignorant, you simply refuse to learn.
>
>> The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
>> cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
>> and use it from the start to end.
>
> That is one of the stupidest comments I've heard anyone say or write in a=
t
> least a year -- and I know stupid. I lived through the 2009 U.S.
> Presidential elections (which are included in that one year). Seriously,
> it's just plain ignorant and stupid.
>
> I've written bash scripts to work with programs in other languages. Look=
at
> how Perl uses C and C++ libraries and they work together. I've written
> programs in Perl that communicate with programs in Java with no trouble.
>
> You make it sound like it's such a barrier to have different languages, b=
ut
> it's not.
>
> This statement is as stupid as saying, "We should all learn to play the s=
ame
> musical instrument so we can all read notes on the same staff and in the
> same notation and play in the same range." Honestly, I don't know whethe=
r
> you're now spinning your wheels and making up things to try to justify yo=
ur
> position or not, but you've crossed a line somewhere today and gone from
> making statements that let you sound somewhat intelligent but inexperienc=
ed
> to making statements that make you sound like you have just enough
> intelligence to learn simple programming tasks, but not enough to see how
> much you don't know.
>
>>> I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and
>>> Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
>>> and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
>>> different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've realized
>>> that different languages do different things much more easily than
>>> others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
>>
>> but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
>> different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
>> C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
>> It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!
>
> Odd. It's painful for you, other programmers don't have an issue with it=
.
> Is it possible programming is not a wise career path for you? Maybe you
> should try something different.
>
>>> Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
>>> converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
>>> parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
>>> doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.) It
>>> took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
>>> maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
>>> I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
>>> back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
>>> ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
>>> What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
>>> tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
>>> great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
>>> those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to SAVE
>>> time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
>>> sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
>>> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
>>> in C.
>>
>> I want to integrate perl into C/C++.
>
> Remember what I said above? This gets even more outlandish than your oth=
er
> statements -- and see what I said about how they make you look as you mak=
e
> each new one.
>
>>> You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
>>> able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
>>> An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
>>> going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
>>> functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
>>> the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
>>> memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
>>> problem you can think of solving with computers?
>>
>> Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
>> people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
>> programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
>> software world.
>
> Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent and
> experience.
>
>>>
>>> You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
>>> accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
>>> over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it is
>>> unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their ideas
>>> are at least worth considering.
>>
>> no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a
>> situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do
>> things.
>
> And it's not, but your ego is so strong and your need to appear and feel
> right is so strong that you are incapable of backing down and realizing w=
hen
> you've goofed or when you don't understand something.
>
>> thank you for the advice!
>
> Why? You don't want it, you won't listen. You just tell all of us we're
> wrong and you're right, yet you're the one without a job, you're the one
> willing to piss off your bosses in programming jobs.
>
>
> Hal
>
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=E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feigin wro=
te:
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:39:53 +0800
>> =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/6/23 Hal Vaughan :
>>>> On Jun 22, 2009, at 9:18 PM, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler w=
rote:
>>>>>> =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA writes:
>>>>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to ta=
ke full
>>>>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those =
other
>>>>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be =
hard to
>>>>>>> maintain for me.
>>>>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard =
for you
>>>>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about knowing=
a
>>>>>> language.
>>>>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>>>>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same functio=
ns.
>>>> Boy, I didn't realize that by "junior programmer" you meant you were=
that
>>>> inexperienced in the field. I don't know if you realize that you've=
just
>>>> basically said you are either unwilling or unable to understand the
>>>> different reasons for different languages.
>>>>
>>>> EACH language is a tool, and each one is a DIFFERENT tool with a DIF=
FERENT
>>>> purpose.
>>> I will give an example to deny your opinion - "a DIFFERENT tool with =
a
>>> DIFFERENT purpose"
>>> Sql is a language for database operation, but what microsoft doing is=
>>> to use C# replacing sql, by linq. I don't like microsoft, but I like
>>> the way they developing C#, the only one language for microsoft will
>>> be C#, I guess.
>> The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual basic, =
sorry
>> wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if yo=
u start
>> digging you will find that half the system management is using scripts=
and
>> batch scripts of one sort or another.
> I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
> think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
> command line console in vista.
Try windows key+R (Run) and run 'cmd'. Voil=C3=A0, there's your command l=
ine.=20
Now let me continue to avoid this hilarious discussion.
Sjoerd

On Wednesday 24 June 2009 03:02:15 =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> we must have an official language
There speaks a well indoctrinated totalitarian!
Lisi
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明覺 wrote:
> I want to keep the programs in my system all written in c/c++, no
> python or perl or any other programming languages, is it possible to
> reach it? I removed the 2 packages, python and perl, from my system,
> and of cause, I losed my desktop, is it possible to install a desktop
> manager without perl and python? which is the proper desktop manager?
> thanks
>
>
>
I am by no means a programmer - junior or otherwise - although have
dabbled with C, C++, Lisp, Scheme, and Python, and have been successful
in getting a few simplistic bash scripts to work as predicted. I say
all of this just to acknowledge that my ignorance about programming is
profound. What microscopic information I can lay claim to is actually
in agreement with what you have already stated in one of your replies to
the numerous posts in response to your topic. I also admire that you
stick so steadfastly to your guns in the face of so much opprobrium.
That takes a certain level of courage of your convictions, and that is a
trait I respect. There is a counterpoint (corollary) to that, of
course, and that is that painting oneself into a corner is not a wise
way to proceed.
I cannot profess to understand your rationale for eschewing all that is
not C/ C# based. But, there are many things I cannot claim to
understand. Your reasons are your own. It does lead to some
interesting choices though:
(1) to what extent does your choice restrict either/ both the
opportunities available to you and the quality of experience with
respect to computing? Some of those links from MikeOS actually look
quite interesting, but for me only as a hobby. For serious research
work, report development, data analysis, and so on, I myself am
completely dependent on higher level programmes that are built upon
lower level routines. I suppose in the spirit of OOP, I don't need to
know how it does that (information hiding) - I just want to know that it
will do what it says on the tin whenever I call upon it to work. This
is just another way of saying that going the purist approach is likely
to severely limit your overall capability to do work. As others have
suggested - unless you are going to recode all the apps you feel that
your digital experience will benefit from including into C, etc., you
are likely to be experiencing a lot of barriers when pursuing a
mono-language approach and in trying to get a workable system.
(2) if your intent is to try to code an entire OS from C, et al., it is
likely to be quite fast but will require an untold number of programming
hours to develop. Perhaps if you searched out C programmers with a
proposal, you could use a basic UNIX (FreeBSD?) system and code together
an OS in C and C only. As others have already noted here, it will take
many programming hours I'd imagine and really - what will be the point,
besides a proof of concept? This is not a bad thing. The point of
wisdom however might be, to paraphrase a GNU/Linux celebrity, to allow
lower level programmes to develop higher level functions. C is a lower
level programming language when compared to, say python or perl (which I
know nothing about, I hasten to add). But C serves a function in a
hierarchy of programming languages that together converge into an
operating environment. The question is are you after a system that only
runs using C programmes or are you after an operational system? If the
former, then there is a lot of work to be done. If the latter, then
there are a number of alternatives available, one of which is GNU/Linux,
or perhaps a *BSD, as already has been mentioned.
I have to take my hat off to you - I wouldn't even know where or how to
begin to follow such a purist path, and I hope that you start a blog
charting progress. This is exactly what FOSS is all about, surely ...
being able to change existing programmes and challenging established
algorithms. As a dedicated FOSS user and voluntary advocate I ask that
you be sure to respect existing GPLs as appropriate, please. Those
standards have preserved human intellectual development as property of
the commons, and this needs to be preserved. If you have something to
add, please ensure that it is owned by the majority of humanity and not
locked under some proprietary licensing agreement.
Godspeed in your mission.
Best
AG
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On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feigin wrot=
e:
> > is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line t=
hat you
> > would need 100s of lines of code with c.
> 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere.
cheers,
Tom
--=20
If a man has talent and cannot use it, he has failed.
-- Thomas Wolfe

On Dom, 21 Jun 2009, ?? wrote:
> Gnu.Linux.(Debian|gNewSense).Gnome.(Mozilla|Gmail|Evolution|Scim|Flashplayer|Codeblocks)
> Microsoft.Windows.(Vista|XP).(QQ|Game|Notepad++) Gcc.Gtkmm.Opengl
While your first message did not have this signature, subsequent ones
had. I don't know for sure exactly what that means, but I suppose it's
software you use/like/support or something like that.
I don't know all of them, but I can make some comments about some of them:
> Mozilla
Parts of it are written in XUL/JavaScript (or something like that).
> Gmail
Relies heavily on JavaScript on the client side. As for the server
side, while I don't know in which language it is written, I doubt it's
C or C++.
> Flashplayer
Has it's own language for defining the flash programs.
--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
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2009/6/23 明覺 :
> 2009/6/23 Jeff Soules :
> A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
> Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
> official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
> an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need
> English to be the world official language", I believe no one will
> agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
> languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English,
> Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
> guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
> have to learn English.
Each (natural) language does things differently. Something very
important would be lost if we did away with the differences.
It's the same with programming languages--different languages exist
for a reason, and while it's theoretically possible to do anything in
any language, some languages are better than others for some tasks.
Haiku in English usually sound silly; an install script in Assembly
would be silly too. You really can't write a play in heroic
alexandrine couplets in Chinese; just the same, there are probably
better language choices than tcl to write real-time financial data
analysis software.
I do not think we need an official world language. I think that if
you want to access Du Fu, Li Bai, Zhuangzi, you will need to learn
Chinese; if you want to read Milton, Shakespeare, the Constitution,
you'll need to learn English; if you want Apollinaire, Hugo, Rostand,
you'll need to learn French. But not everybody needs access to all
those things; and there are "compatibility layers" (in the form of
translations) available for people who don't need direct access.
People need to learn the languages that let them easily do the things
they want to do, whether that's parse a text file or read Homer.
What makes a natural language valuable is not just the sounds and the
grammar, but the entire body of work that exists in the language.
Consider Perl vs. C. Perl doesn't really "add new concepts" to C --
they're both procedural, you can achieve the same goals in each. Part
of what makes Perl valuable is CPAN -- an enormous body of Perl code
that exists to solve thousands of problems that other people have
already had, and for which Perl users have written reusable solutions.
It's not complete, and there are times when it's worthwhile to
re-invent the wheel; but incorporating Perl syntax into C would not
give you access to the best part of Perl. For that, you'd have to
port all of CPAN. To incorporate the best part of Chinese into
English, you need more than pinyin and tone markings; you would need
to translate Confucius, Mencius, Laozi, Han Fei, Shijing, Daozang,
Shiji...... which has been done, but people who really want to
understand still have to learn Chinese!
> I value every good concept in every language, but please add that good
> concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one; or,
> I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
> but please do not force me to use a new one.
What would it mean? A big part of the advantage of Perl, like I said,
isn't new ideas or concepts. Perl has more compressed syntax, and
easier access to built-in functionality, like integrated hashes and
regular expressions. They aren't *new*, you can do them in C, but it
takes work. To include Perl's *advantage* into C, you would either
have to extend the C syntax, or rewrite your C compiler to understand
Perl. To use it, you would have to learn either the new syntax, or
learn actual Perl! In just the same way, you can write in English
letters, "Wu2 sheng1 ye3 you3 ya2, er3 zhi1 ye3 wu2 ya2. Yi3 you3 ya2
sui2 wu2 ya2, dai4 yi3; yi3 er3 wei2 zhi1 zhe3, dai4 er2 yi3 yi3!"
But to understand it (much less appreciate it) you'd need to actually
learn classical Chinese. You can rewrite it in English (it means
something sort of like "My life has a limit, but knowledge has no
limit. To use that which has a limit to pursue that which has no
limit, is a disaster; to think it has [all] been learned, is still a
disaster!"), but it just isn't possible to take the best part of the
language and graft it onto English. Even if you could, you'd be
creating a specialized part of the language that requires specialized
vocabulary and grammar. And the result wouldn't be familiar to
everyone, and would definitely NOT be ANSI C.
> there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
> in one language to another.
To implement, no. To take advantage of, yes.
> The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
> cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
> and use it from the start to end.
People have been cooperating (or not) without a universal language for
a very long time. The English and the Russians cooperated against
Germany in World War II, and they don't even have the same alphabet.
Cooperation or non-cooperation depends on goals; language is only the
smallest part. In programming, the issue is whether people are
solving the same problems in ways that are general enough to be
reusable. Integrating code and libraries written in different
languages is an annoyance, perhaps, but not the most important one.
> but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
> different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
> C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
> It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!
After saying this, you'd still write your own web browser in C++, just
so that you can have one that's written in C++?
No one likes to see needless repetition of effort. But this is a
project management issue, not a language issue. If these were
different firms or employers in the closed-source world, then of
course they wouldn't have access to each others' code; if they were
the same employer, then the employer should've made up his mind about
the project tools, and allocated functionality to the right functional
units, etc. A project whose leadership would try to use javascript,
xslt, and C# to do the same thing--that'd be a nightmare, even if the
project is coded in $deity's own pure programming language.
> I want to integrate perl into C/C++.
Then, again, you'll have to learn Perl anyway. The advantage is
inseparable from the language.
>> You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
>> able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
>> An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
>> going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
>> functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
>> the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
>> memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
>> problem you can think of solving with computers?
> Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
> people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
> programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
> software world.
I'm still not understanding. I get that this is a big undertaking,
but what do you hope to achieve by having the entire system be in the
same language? The concepts behind, say, device drivers, rdbms, and
installer scripts are not all the same, whether they're all written in
Perl, C, or Fortran; and no one actually has the time to read,
understand, and change each of the millions of lines of code in
Debian. Even if your whole system were written in C, it would take a
lifetime to read all the code, so you still wouldn't fully understand
every component...
If the goal is a pure-c system, you could achieve that by just not
installing anything that isn't in C. I don't know what you would do
with it, though.
If your goal is to have reading knowledge and the ability to modify
all of a modern system like Debian, you'll get there faster by
learning Perl and Python than you would by re-coding everything in
C...
Regards,
Jeff
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Celejar wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:52:41 -0400
> Jeff Soules wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
>> perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
>> in C.
>
> Interesting; here's a different perspective (I'm not a serious enough
> coder to go on the record with an opinion):
>
> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001145.html
Quoted from the above link:
-------
If that doesn't carry enough weight for you, how does it sound coming
from Charles Moore, the creator of FORTH?
A second corollary was even more heretical: "Do it yourself!"
The conventional approach, enforced to a greater or lesser extent,
is that you shall use a standard subroutine. I say that you should write
your own subroutines.
Before you can write your own subroutines, you have to know how. This
means, to be practical, that you have written it before; which makes it
difficult to get started. But give it a try. After writing the same
subroutine a dozen times on as many computers and languages, you'll be
pretty good at it.
-------
Note that, while this says that reinventing the wheel CAN be worthwhile,
it also says to do so in MANY DIFFERENT LANGUAGES!
--
Marc Shapiro
mshapiro_42@yahoo.com
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On Jun 24, 2009, at 1:21 AM, Cowley Harris wrote:
> This guy asked a relatively simple question which I'm paraphrasing
> here as "can you run Debian without perl or python", the answer is
> pretty much no.
> He gave his reasons for the question and his opinion on the answers he
> was given. He's also started probably the most interesting thread on
> this list for a while.
I think the interest has come from people responding to him, not from =20=
anything he's said.
> As I've read it, he's not attacked anyone personally even when
> disagreeing with people and yet he is being personally attacked for
> his opinions.
>
> Well, here is my opinion, if you feel threatened enough by someone who
> disagrees with you, that you must insult them, it's a sign of a weak
> logic or a weak mind. It's the reaction typical of a zealot, fool or
> troll and not the response of someone with some useful knowledge to
> share.
I don't see anyone being threatened by him or acting like they're =20
threatened. I know I've stated my thoughts on this as I've seen some =20=
patterns emerge, such as his statements getting more and more extreme =20=
and as many of them show more and more of a claim to knowing something =20=
it's clear he does not know. But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet =20=
-- but then I haven't read many of the overnight posts yet.
> I don't agree with him that a "one programming language system"
> would be "the right way to do things" or that it would lead to a
> bright future of our free software world". but I'm not going to insult
> him for his belief. In fact it might be a good thing that he tries
> this endeavor.
>
> =93Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable =
people
> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
> depends on unreasonable people.=94 GB Shaw.
Yes, that's a cute quotation. I can also cite Zen quotations or other =20=
sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or =20=
when to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk =20
around that rock.
> The benefits of multiple languages over a 1 language system (1LS) is
> that it gives you the ability to program at the appropriate level of
> the problem space. The studies show that the higher level you program
> the more instructions you have per line, and yet the bugs per line
> stay about the same.
> The studies also show that the amount of LOC produced by programmers
> of the same skill level is about the same, whether they use assembly,
> c or java, and yet the amount of instructions per LOC increase with
> level of the language. More productivity in the same time span is a
> major advantage.
Definitely. There are definite advantages to a higher level language =20=
and we are well past the days when we gained any significant advantage =20=
by having a programmer write in Assembler to save memory space and CPU =20=
time instead of having the same system done in a higher level =20
language, whether it's an interpreted one or compiled one.
> On a personal note, I think that programmers that use different
> languages can communicate in "meta-programming" terms, a hash-table is
> a hash-table whether you call it a hash or a dictionary. The benefits
> of a 1LS would be small in comparison to the benefits of plural
> system.
Which is what pretty much everyone but the OP has said. I think we =20
all agree on that. I've found times where I may be talking with =20
someone who knows one language but does not know the one I'm working =20
in that I'm using a modified hash table or I'll say, "It's something =20
like a hash table, but it's my own class, so there's some extra =20
functions." That generally does well enough. I've never had a =20
problem talking with another programmer who is not familiar with the =20
language I'm using where I couldn't communicate what I was doing easily.
Hal=
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On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:09 AM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Micha Feigin =20=
> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>
>> The only one language for microsoft is c#, oh wait, its visual =20
>> basic, sorry
>> wait a minute it's forms for the gui, assembly in the drivers in if =20=
>> you start
>> digging you will find that half the system management is using =20
>> scripts and
>> batch scripts of one sort or another.
> I mean .net framework, I don't know they use scripts so heavily, but I
> think they are reducing the use of scripts, you even cannot find a
> command line console in vista.
I can. Used it on my Mother's computer when running tests when =20
Comcast, the local crappy cable/Internet provider screwed up. I know =20=
it's there because I've used it.
What leads you to think it's not there?
Hal=
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On Jun 24, 2009, at 2:11 AM, =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feigin =20=
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:18:16 +0800
>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:18 PM, John Hasler =20=
>>> wrote:
>>>> =A9=FA=C4=B1 writes:
>>>>> yes, currently it's true, but I hope one day I will be able to =20
>>>>> take full
>>>>> control of my system, and modify them as i like, if I have those =20=
>>>>> other
>>>>> language programmed softwares installed in my system, it will be =20=
>>>>> hard to
>>>>> maintain for me.
>>>>
>>>> If learning enough of another language to do maintainence is hard =20=
>>>> for you
>>>> you aren't much of a programmer. Programming is not about =20
>>>> knowing a
>>>> language.
>>> Yes, language is just a tool, so I want to keep my tool simple and
>>> powerful, I do not want so many similar tools with the same =20
>>> functions.
>>
>> What you are saying is that you just don't want tools around.
>>
>> First of all they don't have the same function (and if you'd use =20
>> them you'd
>> know). And if you knew something you would know that c may be =20
>> powerful but it
>> is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one =20
>> line that you
>> would need 100s of lines of code with c.
> 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
1) Not all libraries are bug free and producing such a library takes =20
considerable effort and why does one need that effort when one can =20
produce the same program quickly and easily in Python?
2) Perhaps it's not a specific function that will be re-used later, =20
perhaps it's a combination of several things.
3) Considering that Python is written in C (or at least parts of it), =20=
if it worked better to include those functions in C, instead of in a =20
new language, then the same code could have been done as a C library. =20=
How many people are trying to do that?
4) Do that. Then do it for EVERY Python function. And EVERY Perl =20
function. And just try doing it with really high level languages. =20
And see how HUGE a library you have -- it'll be so overburdened that =20
nobody will be able to easily learn the API. People will stick with =20
the original languages because it's easier to learn that language than =20=
such a complex library with an API.
Now, here's one for you: You resist, in every possible way, learning =20
any new languages and talk about how bad it is that you have to learn =20=
them. What languages do you know well? Which ones have you taken =20
time to learn and to use for more than just a simple program? And =20
what are your real objections to different languages and using them?
The more I read your posts the more I get the impression that the =20
issue here is you just want to justify not having to learn languages, =20=
which makes me wonder if you were hand-fed what it took to learn C and =20=
C++ and basically have never mastered any other language and don't =20
want to -- and are going into more effort to justify that than what it =20=
would take to learn how to learn languages.
Hal=
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Hal Vaughan wrote.
=A0"But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I
haven't read many of the overnight posts yet."
Anybody here watch "The daily show". The first time I ever saw a show,
they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever
said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to
old news footage of Rumsfeld saying "We know they've got weapons of
mass destruction, we know where they are". Classic.
"you're off your rocker"
"I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth."
"You're not just ignorant"
"...just plain ignorant and stupid"
also interesting was the use of disparaging remarks about anyone who
agreed with him
"Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent
and experience."
and that's just you from one email. Do you actually read what you are typin=
g?
Here is a bit of your own email you should have read, the bit where
you say "no point in continuing any discussion". Because you kept on
replying, which _is_ _how_ _to_ _continue_ _the_ _discussion_.
"It's clear they all have significantly more experience than you and
they're telling you, "There is no point to what you're doing.",
If you read the comments at the start, there were suggestions on ways
do what he wanted to do, or suggestions of systems that are primarily
C based. Not only are you not reading your own emails, you are not
reading others.
And to the people (Neal Hogan, Lisi Reisz), who had seemed to have
the biggest problems with what he was saying, who contributed the
least logic and factual statements to the entire discussion. A big
ironic thanks for contributing noise to the signal.
--snip--
>> =93Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
>> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
>> depends on unreasonable people.=94 GB Shaw.
>
> Yes, that's a cute quotation. =A0I can also cite Zen quotations or other
> sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or whe=
n
> to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around that
> rock.
Great, you can go google up some zen and I'll pretend I care.
I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of
the discussion.
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On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:17:33 +0100
Tom Furie wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feigin wr=
ote:
>=20
> > > is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one line=
that you
> > > would need 100s of lines of code with c.
> > 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
>=20
> You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere.
Thats not my problem. Even with python the 100s of lines are there behind t=
he
scenes. What interests me is that _I_ need to write only one line and then I
can go outside and smell the flowers. The code is a byproduct that is not t=
hat
interesting in itself. It usually comes to solve some problem and I'd rather
spend my time on the problem than on the code.
There is another point, it's much easier to debug 1 line of code than a hun=
dred.
c is a swiss army knife, low level, very powerful, will solve everything wi=
th
enough work. If someone didn't build a tool for the job yet, c is probably =
your
answear. I still wouldn't want to carve a surfboard using an army knife if I
can just pick a complete surfboard and spend my time surfing instead.
Regretably I spend quite a bit of time with c, among other things because i=
t's
the right tool for MY job (fortran and matlab are usually better, but for s=
ome
things thats what I've got), and as someone who knows c quite well, I tell
people to stay away if they have a quicker way.
>=20
> cheers,
> Tom
>=20
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On Jun 24, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Cowley Harris wrote:
> Hal Vaughan wrote.
>
> "But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I
> haven't read many of the overnight posts yet."
>
> Anybody here watch "The daily show". The first time I ever saw a show,
> they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever
> said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to
> old news footage of Rumsfeld saying "We know they've got weapons of
> mass destruction, we know where they are". Classic.
>
> "you're off your rocker"
Yes, a judgement call. Did you look at the context? Please, if you
want to make me look bad, have the courtesy to quote me in context.
The line was, "All of US are telling you that you're off your rocker
and on a fool's quest." It's a quick paraphrase of much of what has
been said, and in context (which includes his question before it,
which I'll leave to you to research), it's also idiomatic.
> "I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth."
That's not an insult. Look over his comments. I'll add that I've
been corresponding with him privately as well. I'm not a counselor or
LCSW or psychologist, but I have enough experience to recognize when
someone is avoiding something from fear or trying to avoid work they
don't want to do. I'll qualify myself if you need me to.
> "You're not just ignorant"
Ignorant is a quantifiable judgement which fits because he has
demonstrated an amazing lack of knowledge in the field in discussion.
> "...just plain ignorant and stupid"
Not an insult, a judgement call, but one that can be supported. Yes,
maybe stupid can be an insult. IF context did not make a difference.
I was calling the attitude "just plain ignorant and stupid." That is
not insulting the person. If you think so, then take teacher training
and see why there is so much focus on addressing problems with a kid's
actions, not with them.
Now you can go on, but I stopped reading here because you pretty much
took comments out of context to make your point.
In other words, you tried to say that he makes me insecure and tried
to focus on me insulting him when, what you've actually done, is
exactly what you accuse me of. It's called projection: We like to say
others are doing what we don't want to admit we're doing.
The OP has made MANY statements that show he does not know his field.
He's been given a LOT of good information, yet persists on saying that
his way is right and that others don't understand him. That is, point
blank, ignorant. I may not be smooth, I may not be graceful, but I'm
not afraid to say, "This is ignorant," when it is.
And next time you want to accuse me or others of doing something,
don't pull out just the parts that support your side and figure the
context and parts that disprove it will be ignored or can be discarded.
Feel free to misquote me more. I won't be reading it, though. I have
a short tolerance for people that take my words out of context and try
to say that they mean something other than what they mean in the full
context in which they're used. In other words, at first I thought you
might have had a point -- until you came on announcing, with the Jon
Stewart reference, that you were going to seriously make me look like
a full, but could only do so by removing the context of my statements.
Hal
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Will you "not be reading it", in the same way you weren't continuing
the discussion?
Here is the thing,
When you describe people in a negative way, that is in an insult. The
big hint that you are doing so, is when you start the sentence with
"you're ...". If you are expressing an opinion, it starts with "I
think ..."
"you're off your rocker" is a term of derision and is an insult.
"I think that your idea is sub-optimal" is an opinion.
Turn it around onto yourself, and think how it would make you feel.
That's also a good way to figure out what is insulting or not. But it
may take a bit more thought.
Why would I need a teaching course? I have a degree in psychology. I
know about projection, I also know it is typified by a defensive
mental position, like a person trying to defend his hypocrisy.
"you were going to seriously make me look like a full", is spelled
"fool", and I didn't have to make you look like one.
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On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 01:16:10AM +0300, Micha Feigin wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:17:33 +0100
> Tom Furie wrote:
>=20
> > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 02:11:31PM +0800, =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Micha Feigin =
wrote:
> >=20
> > > > is far from simple. There are things you can do in python in one li=
ne that you
> > > > would need 100s of lines of code with c.
> > > 100s of lines of C code? how about drop the 100 lines into a function?
> >=20
> > You still need to put those 100s of lines of code in somewhere.
>=20
> Thats not my problem. Even with python the 100s of lines are there behind=
the
I naver said it was your problem, I was responding to =E6=98=8E=E8=A6=BA. M=
y point
being that for him to drop those 100's of lines into a function and be
able to make it a one line function call, those 100's of lines of code
still have to be produced.
The thing with higher level languages, libraries, etc. is those 100's or
1000's of lines of code are all still there but someone else has done
the grunt work, and we get a nice easy way to make use of it.
Cheers,
Tom
--=20
Fay: The British police force used to be run by men of integrity.
Truscott: That is a mistake which has been rectified.
-- Joe Orton, "Loot"

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 4:57 PM, Cowley Harris wrote:
> Hal Vaughan wrote.
>
> =A0=A0"But I haven't seen anyone insult him yet -- but then I
> =A0haven't read many of the overnight posts yet."
>
> Anybody here watch "The daily show". The first time I ever saw a show,
> they had a piece where they had Donald Rumsfeld denying he had ever
> said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, then they cut to
> old news footage of Rumsfeld saying "We know they've got weapons of
> mass destruction, we know where they are". Classic.
>
> "you're off your rocker"
> "I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth."
> "You're not just ignorant"
> "...just plain ignorant and stupid"
>
> also interesting was the use of disparaging remarks about anyone who
> agreed with him
> "Nobody agrees with you. =A0At least nobody with any programming talent
> and experience."
>
> and that's just you from one email. Do you actually read what you are typ=
ing?
> Here is a bit of your own email you should have read, the bit where
> you say "no point in continuing any discussion". Because you kept on
> replying, which _is_ _how_ _to_ _continue_ _the_ _discussion_.
>
> "It's clear they all have significantly more experience than you and
> they're telling you, "There is no point to what you're doing.",
> If you read the comments at the start, there were suggestions on ways
> do what he wanted to do, or suggestions of systems that are primarily
> C based. Not only are you not reading your own emails, you are not
> reading others.
>
> And to the people (Neal Hogan, Lisi Reisz), =A0who had seemed to have
> the biggest problems with what he was saying, who contributed the
> least logic and factual statements to the entire discussion. =A0A big
> ironic thanks for contributing noise to the signal.
I suppose writing long comments about the psychology of "hurt
feelings" and Daily Show analogies adds logic and facts to the thread.
If you were paying attention (at least as much as you suggest) you'd
have noticed that I was one of the original responders to the OP's
question, who took him seriously. He failed to respond to it and went
off as he did.
Get off you high (merry-go-round) horse and spout your parent-like
drivel to the kids who kicked a ball into your yard. A discussion took
place . . . perhaps some posters used language you found hurtful. . .
I didn't realize that debian-users@ had a politeness policeman. I'll
keep that in mind from now on.
With all due respect,
-Neal
>
> --snip--
>
>>> =93Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people
>>> attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore,
>>> depends on unreasonable people.=94 GB Shaw.
>>
>> Yes, that's a cute quotation. =A0I can also cite Zen quotations or other
>> sources about the wisdom of knowing when to fight and when not to, or wh=
en
>> to push a big rock out of the way or when it's better to walk around tha=
t
>> rock.
>
> Great, you can go google up some zen and I'll pretend I care.
>
> I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of
> the discussion.
>
>
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>
>
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--snip--
>> I now have a list of trolls to ignore, at least some good that came of
>> the discussion.
--snip--
H
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